Killed To Order: China's Organ Harvesting Industry

In Episode Forty-Eight of Roots, Rights & Reason, host Lee Smith welcomes award-winning journalist, filmmaker, and New York Times bestselling author Jan Jekielek for a sobering discussion about one of the most disturbing human rights atrocities of the modern era. Drawing from his newly released book Killed to Order, Jekielek exposes the Chinese Communist Party’s state-run forced organ harvesting industry and explains how prisoners of conscience, particularly Falun Gong practitioners, became targets of a system driven by political repression, dehumanization, and profit.

Throughout the episode, Smith and Jekielek examine how decades of Western engagement with Communist China overlooked mounting evidence of brutality in pursuit of economic partnership. The conversation explores the CCP’s use of propaganda, coercion, and global influence operations, while highlighting growing efforts in the United States to expose forced organ harvesting and hold those responsible accountable. It is a powerful discussion about morality, totalitarianism, and the true nature of America’s greatest geopolitical adversary.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

From the brave roots of our family. The unstoppable force of American integrity. The sacred inheritance of freedom we must protect. This is our legacy. Join investigative journalist Lee Smith on Roots, Rights, and Reason. Powered by America's future.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Hi, I'm Lee Smith. Welcome and thanks for joining us for this new episode of Roots, Rights, and Reason. This week, we're discussing one of the principles of American foreign policy, how our alliances tend to be with other moral nations. And this raises a crucial issue. How did we wind up tying our fate to a communist regime like China, whose human rights abuses are repugnant to all Americans? The United States has historically aligned itself with democratic nations because they tend to share similar political values. Democracies emphasize rule of law, individual rights, transparency, and accountability. This is why the U.S. has strong, long-standing alliances with countries like Canada, Japan, Israel, and many European nations. Now, contrast this with partnerships involving authoritarian or communist regimes. These systems are not only centralized but opaque, meaning decisions can change quickly, and it's difficult to understand what's happening behind the curtain. And with China, concerns go much deeper than regime instability. There are widely reported human rights issues, including repression of political dissent, mass surveillance, and maybe most shocking of all, forced organ harvesting from prisoners of conscience. And yet for more than fifty years, American policymakers and corporate leaders have tied America's fate to this brutally repressive regime. Indeed, as China rose from an impoverished backwater to a world giant, the American middle class has suffered greatly in the exchange. The current administration seems eager to reverse this trend and decouple us from a totalitarian juggernaut. Our guest this week is journalist Jan Yekeliek, senior editor at Epoch Times. As host of the groundbreaking American Thought Leaders, he has interviewed nearly a thousand thought leaders on camera and challenges the grand narratives of our time. Jan is also an award-winning documentary filmmaker producing The Unseen Crisis, DeSantis vs. Florida lockdowns, and Finding Manny. He is also author of the recently published book, Now a New York Times bestseller, Killed to Order, China's organ harvesting industry and the true nature of America's Biggest Adversary. Jan Yekelik, my old friend, welcome to Roots, Rights, and Reason. And I have to congratulate you right off the top. Your book is a New York Times bestseller. Fantastic. Congratulations. And it's it's it's not the uh easiest subject. It's a little surprising that that uh that a book of uh this seriousness, this magnitude has gotten on the best subtletist, but it's uh it's it's testimony to how important the subject is and how great your work is. So congrats and thanks for being here today.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Lee, thank you so much. And honestly, it is frankly astonishing to me that it it could be there, you know, launch. I uh I got a phone call basically as this happened. Uh you're you're gonna be number eight when it launches. It was it was astonishing. And and I mean, this is an issue, Lee, that when I first started talking about with people, literally people would clue out in the middle of conversations. Um, you know, I could see them mentally leave the the whole conversation.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

Very disturbing subject, obviously. And you, I I know that you have been you've been talking about it. I've heard you lecture on it before you came down here to South Carolina to spoke to speak about it. I've heard you lecture it. So it's something that you've pursued with passion and make sure that everyone in the world, certainly in the English speaking world, understands uh how this came about and what's still happening today. So can you talk about the book a bit and the you know, and the subject?

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Uh a hundred percent. I mean, this is a kind of next level organ trafficking, something that, you know, organ trafficking on the black market, this happens around the world. This is something that's uh at a whole different scale, and I would argue a whole different level of evil. I mean, you have a state actor involved, first of all, and I think you absolutely need that for this kill-to-order enterprise to function. Um, there's there's kind of two key elements. You have to be able to one actively dehumanize an entire group of people, uh, and you also have to be able to incarcerate a very large group of people to be able to do this at all. And actually, so the CCP has this history in its uh, you know, since 1949 of creating what are called black classes. And a black class is a group that's struggled against. The regime says this group is the enemy, this group is the cause of all your problems. You know, in in the early years, it was the landowners, right? These are the people that took your stuff. You should take it back. They're dangerous, they're bad people, they're evil, um, they're beneath you somehow, right? And this kind of activates this quirk in our psychology that allows us to kind of go along with horrible things being done to people, um, or maybe even participating. And I think this is this is essential. And this is many different groups over the years in China were targeted in this way. By the way, it didn't mean they kill everybody. It meant that they, these people have to confess their sins and genuflect at the altar of the Communist Party. And as long as they say, yes, I was wrong to be a landowner, whatever, right? Yes, uh, I will now follow your directives 100%, whatever you say, then they might leave you alone. Maybe, maybe. So that's that's one piece of the puzzle, right? Another piece is that you know, in an ethical organ transplantation, may I just briefly say how it works, like very briefly? Please. So let's say I need a heart. Okay. If I need a heart, someone has to have a catastrophic accident. And that person also, an ethics team needs to decide that that person isn't coming back because we don't want to transplant from someone that has a chance of coming back, obviously, right? So, and on top of that, uh that's a that that that's rare. Okay, that's the point. And on top of that, you need to uh have basically the heart match the body in a way. Our bodies reject things that are foreign, including organs. So we control for that using blood type and tissue type matching, right? And the size actually also needs to match. This is the reason that supply is always a lot less than demand, because you have to match all these variables to have a heart that would actually be even suitable for the potential recipient, right? So that's in an ethical transplantation system. There's a complex organ registry and a complex system of assigning these the organs that become available through these catastrophic accidents. And so, but in China, right, one of our whistleblowers, he was uh head of the Israeli Transplant Association at one point. He was a professor of surgery, I think still a professor of transplant surgery at Tel Aviv University. He had a patient back in 2005 who told him, I'm tired of waiting. He had a really bad heart condition, he was might have died, right? I'm going to China and getting it done in two weeks. Scheduled, right? And so this was a huge red flag at two levels, right? For Yaqim. One was scheduling the catastrophic accident. How is that happening? Well, someone's being killed, obviously, right? And number two, two weeks. How do you get the two weeks? Right. And that to get that perfect match, right, that you need for the organ to be able to work. So now I'll I'll go back to this black class.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

So 2005, that was really the first time that we had an inkling or evidence that this was going on. Before that, it was happening. It was happening, but we didn't really know about it.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

It was happening at a small scale. I believe as early as 1998, there was actually congressional testimony about a prisoner being killed for organs in China. So we knew it happened at a low scale. It looked like they were, it looks like they were experimenting with ethnic minorities. They were starting to use Uyghurs and stuff like that in this way. We have a one surgeon who admits to actually having done it, right? And another case, it was a soldier that was killed for a for a higher-level uh military official. But the scaling happens in basically the year 2000. And I'll explain why that happened. Um, so that that that's part of the answer. So 2005, I'm sorry I interrupted. I just wanted to make sure that Oh, and there was, I mean, in 2005, it was really in 2006, almost at the same time, that Jakob Levy's kind of testimony became very public or internationally public. And at the same time, there was a woman named Annie, who was the wife of a transplant surgeon at a hospital called Sujetun. And this woman basically disclosed, her Annie is a pseudonym, that her husband had confessed to her he had taken 2,000 corneas out of living people, and that there was a camp of people being used, of Falun Gong practitioners being used as these unwilling organ donors. And so this is actually what leads to kind of the setup here. How do you actually get this kill-to-order industry? Well, in 1999, the Chinese Communist Party basically picked its new black class. This was the dictator Zhang Zemin. He noticed that the sports, I believe it was the sports ministry, did an assessment around this uh very popular type of qigong or slow motion exercise and meditation system that had gotten popular in China, that's 70 to 100 million people were doing it by the end of the 90s. Okay. This is Falun Gong. This is this is Falun Gong, exactly. And and Falun Gong was also very unusual in terms of its um operational structure, if you will, or I more specifically, lack of it. In communist regimes, they're very, I like to say obscenely hierarchical, right? Everything is very, very rigidly, you know, up the chain to the to the Politburo Standing Committee. And this was something very different. So there's a lot of teachings by a man named Li Hong Zhu about truthfulness, compassion, forbearance. These are the core principles of the system. The exercises said to work in tandem with this, but there aren't a lot of rules in it. And so there's no collection of money, there's no roster, like you don't join an organization. Living the teachings is what makes you a practitioner. There's no worship, there's no even hierarchy. Okay. So, so it's very diffuse, very grassroots, very bottom-up, very non-communist, if I may say, right? And also spiritual for that matter, even though that wasn't something that was overly advertised in the system. Like people kind of came and went and tried it if they liked it. If it helped them somehow, they would do it and then they would leave, right? But it grew in this way massively. And by the end of the 90s, the dictator, Zhang Zemin, decided to crush it, to eradicate it, to use his terminology, right? And that, as I mentioned before, that didn't mean kill everybody. It meant make them into a black class, struggle against them, get them to renounce the error of their ways. And kind of for the first time, really at scale in China, a group said no, right? And they just at some very significant insignificant numbers, they refused to be re-educated or transformed. And this is what created this mass incarceration of practitioners, which starts happening in late 1999 into 2000. Okay. In 2005, actually, the US State Department estimated that half of all the prisoners in the China's massive incarceration system were Falun Gong practitioners. So it's not clear. Maybe they incarcerated a million, maybe two. We don't know the numbers, but it's a really huge group of people, right? And this is what sets up the kill to order enterprise because you have one, a very dehumanized group of people. There's massive propaganda being pushed out about them, about why they're bad, they're dangerous, you should fear them, right? And on the other hand, they're incarcerated in mass numbers. And so this is where some very evil person, and I make a case in the book about who I think that is and how it started. I think I make a pretty good case. I don't know this for sure. Realized, hey, wait a second. You know, we do have a priority of growing our organ transplantation industry. And at the same time, we have this large group of very unusually healthy people that are, you know, we're basically errat were eradicating this group. Right. They're captives, no one's gonna stand up for them. A hundred percent. And also, right, people are being tortured to death in these prisons, right? There's this unwritten rule because these people didn't re-educate easily that that Felong deaths would be considered suicides in the prisons. So people are just disappearing. Like, so if they start disappearing for a different reason, who's really gonna notice? And they're not even giving their names because they don't want to implicate their fellows, right? So it's it's uh it's a it's a very vulnerable situation. So they started blood this and this, by the way, we didn't realize the significance of this when we started hearing reports from Falun Gong practitioners that had escaped China and so forth, that they were getting these very high-level uh medical exams, right? And it turned out they're blood typing, tissue typing, and organ scanning them, right? And then they created this database. And so, you know, here, let's say I'm the wealthy transplant tourist, I've got a hundred or two hundred thousand dollars to spend. I see the ad, and these existed, right, online. I see the price. I go in, I they tell me absolutely, we'll set you up in two weeks. I pay my money. The reason you can get the two weeks is because my so-called donor is an innocent prisoner of conscience, incarcerated, ready to be shipped and killed to order. And that's what happens. That's my that's why my book is called Killed to Order.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

Why did they want to? I mean, the the Jan, I mean, first of all, the way you explain it and the the evil um, you know, the the the evil uh intent behind this, to take a class of people, as as the Chinese Communist Party has done, and they've done it with the Tibetans, they've done it with the Uyghurs, they've done it with with, as you said, landowners, intellectuals, and Sal and Gong. Um why did they want to, you said they wanted to grow their organ harvesting industry. What why? Um it's I mean, just because it's so gruesome, it's mind-boggling. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, well, we can have uh organ tourism, have people from all around the world, and they'll charge them lots of money. And these people will then be indebted to us and they'll make our case around the world. But what a wonderful, what a wonderful uh country we are.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

This is sort of a murky area. Okay, we know that in documentation that they're interested in growing an organ transplant industry, right? Not specifically kill-to-order organ transplantation, right? We know that they were killing people for organs uh at some lower scale. Again, I mentioned there's examples of Uyghurs, there's examples of military people. Um, this is documented, but it's not, it's not really happening at scale, right? And so, and we don't I we don't know exactly. Uh we knew it was a kind of a priority for them. They're looking to, they were looking to kind of, I don't know, join the international community kind of in every at every level, right? And transplantation was kind of a trademark thing of a successful, you know, society, right? If you have a successful organ transplantation system, it's just they decided to do it a different way because they had a you know, quote unquote, disposable group of people to build it on. And so between 2000 and 2005, you have this geometric growth of transplant hospitals between, and it's just it's astonishing, right? With no credible organ donation system at all of any sort. I mean, they they they later kind of claimed that they were just using prisoners and then they stopped. That's a whole different, you know, discussion to be had. I mean, the the idea of using prisoners itself is obviously, I mean, to me, reprehensible, right? But um, but but that was kind of their excuse for why they were able to get these astonishing numbers of transplants with no donors, you know, no credible donors.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

What why has it taken so long for people to understand what's happening? I mean, you know, thank goodness that your book is alerting many, it's it's a New York Times bestseller, so it's alerting more people to the issue, but but why has it taken so long? And I I mean you're you're in Washington when you're speaking to policymakers, uh, you know, or or officials, are they surprised? Like, oh my god, oh my goodness, I've never done anything about this. Like, yeah, we know, but there's really nothing we can do, and no one anything is doing about it. So sorry, tough. What's what what's going on behind the scenes?

SPEAKER_01 17:19

It's a combination of things, okay. I'll have to kind of give you a whole sort of like a menu of items, right? Partially, I just learned this early on, right? And then I studied the issue because I was so shocked at how disinterested people were. I mean, disinterested in a very active way. Like I said, people would just not connect on the issue. They just didn't want to hear it, right? And so I just think that some things, there's so much horror when you understand how this works, right? It's a horror show, right? It's really extreme, right? It's like an evil yet to be seen on this planet, as David Matis, one of the hero researchers of this whole thing, described it as. So, so there's that, okay. A second part is I have a whole chapter in the book about how the Chinese Communist Party makes its own population, but also us and kind of people in Western nations, free countries, complicit. Okay. And I'll just I'll give you this example really quickly. By the way, Zhang Zemin, the dictator who started the Fengong persecution, this was his bread and butter. This is how he rose to power ultimately. He was, and I mean, you actually uh pointed out at one point about the great relationship he had forged with Senator Feinstein as one of kind of the tools of engagement, if you will, right? But the the way it would work, and I think this is exactly how it worked in that example, too, that like the person portrays themselves as a reformer, saying, Look, I'm a reformer, I'm actually a capitalist. We've done some, we've had some bad situations in the past, we had Mao, but we're past that. We're moving ahead now, okay, and uh, and we're gonna do it together. You give us all your money, we're gonna liberalize China together, we're gonna change it. But and then there but remember there's those hardliners back there, right? Those hardliners. Now you don't wanna you don't wanna make them unhappy because if they if they get unhappy.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

What I'm asking for, you don't want to weaken me because I'm between you and the hardliners, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:12

That's right. See, and it's us working together, right? And now, okay, there's a and of course, it's just to be explicit that the hardliners, the guy's actually a hardliner too, you in most cases, and they're actually in cahoots to basically extract whatever value they can out of you, right? This is kind of, if you want, that's the punchline of the book, in a sense, that the Chinese Communist Party instrumentalizes absolutely everything, including its, you know, human relationships, right? And of course, they wrote, you know, the the Kissinger doctrine, basically this idea that we're gonna pump the cash into China and we're gonna liberalize them. This was a mania in America. This was like a 95-5 issue. Everybody believed this, right? Except, you know, a few people that were like, no, they're actually like killing people for refusing to give up their beliefs. That should be a deal breaker for liberalizing, right? Like it's the First Amendment here, right? There's a reason that's our fundamental protection against government, right? It I mean, it didn't actually make sense, but there was a mania. Oh, and it took years. I remember like trying to explain this to people. I'm like, no, look, look, they really aren't liberalizing. Like, how can you uh what do you well look there they have all this economic growth? It's like, yeah, yeah, that that that's not the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

Because this is what your book is about. It's about the the most crucial piece of evidence to show that no matter how much the United States helped uh the Chinese Communist Party rise and pulled it, pulled uh hundreds of millions of peasants out of slavery, this, the Oregon harvesting, is the crucial piece of evidence saying they're not liberalizing, right? They're not liberalizing. This is who they are. Why are we still partnered with them? Why do we trade with them? Why do we do any of these things? It's not as if Tineman wasn't enough and all these other things that they've done, but now they're they they they have an industry to harvest organs from from from living people. It's disgusting. So what why? Why were why have Americans been so dense about this?

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Well, so aside from the kind of obvious methods, right, of co-option, like honey pots, bribery, you know, all of that exists. But I I think there's there's other things, like there's a famous uh uh Upton Sinclair line, which I just absolutely love, right? And because I think it's so apropos, he he says, you know, it's very difficult to get someone to understand a man to get understand something if their paycheck depends on them not understanding it, right? Like that, I they actually think that's very accurate. So it's just it so combine, right? Combine the mania. We're only just getting over that mania, by the way, of that we're gonna liberalize. There's still people that tell me this, right? Still today, right? After everything we know. Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

I mean, Donald Trump put a big dent in it, right? I mean, it's kind of Trump. There are other political officials, but Trump is the first president who's really done something about it.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, in the last 10 years, the narrative has shifted dramatically. And you can see that through like fall foreign direct investment, for example, falling through the bottom. I mean, listen, they would let they would appropriate companies. You know, we had an article some years back about fellows, right? The printer company. The printer company, they they they they exported all their manufacturing. They built this amazing, shiny, beautiful new factory. And when they were about to sort of take possession of the factory, the door was locked and there was different branding on it. You know, like this stuff like this happened all the time, right? And people just said, no, they're going to liberalize. Like just we wouldn't, there's there's no amount of evidence. Like, has China ever been held to account at the World Trade Organization? No, they purely have used it as a weapon against America and other countries. Like, literally, there's not a single example that I'm aware of of China being meaningfully held.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

They've never been punished. You remember the I mean the U.S. withdrew under Trump twice now from the World Health Organization. Yeah. But yeah, they've never been held accountable. They're all scared to hold them accountable to the WTO because they realize that China is the platform of their, you know, of the global trade regime.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Right. So so anyway, it's uh it's it's it's interesting. It's shifting significantly. Like there's they they did they've done some things that have made us, you know, have these shocks, right? One of them is, you know, withholding the, I remember withholding the PPP during COVID. That was something where people were the threat to withhold PPP during COVID. Was it every a whole bunch of people like, whoa, what they wouldn't do that, right? Or and actually, you know, withholding some of the rare earth magnets, right? More recently, as part of this kind of, you know, being challenged on their weaponization of the trade system, right? Uh that a lot of people said, whoa, you know, it's like, yeah, except like what it was this wasn't a glaring vulnerability. You know, I I you know, we actually sold.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

No, you're right, all of that stuff. But like all of our pharmaceuticals are made there too. They knocked our steel industry out. I mean, no one was paying attention.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

It was it was a mania. I mean, I mean, part of it was this idea, right, that through trade we will avoid uh military conflict, right? Right. But the the the and and I I I think that works, but it only works when the good faith actors are involved, right? This is I I've been thinking about this a lot, right? But when you have an actor that ha has no good faith and purely uses whatever good faith you have as a weapon against you, right? I you it that doesn't work anymore. You have to have credible deterrence. If you don't have it, they eat you, right? Like I just don't uh it this seems like basic logic to me.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

I think part of it's the money, or a large part of it's the money, but also I think that people at a certain uh I I think that oftentimes people at very high levels are just absolutely um delusional, right? This can't possibly be happening, you know, because well d you know, you can't talk about it's certainly not like Hitler, it's not like the Nazis, that's not happening in front of us. But one of the things that you're that your book is about, I mean, and you and I have spoken about this a lot. I I the sheer number of uh the sheer number of people the Chinese Communist Party has killed since since the revolution in 1949, it's shocking. And yet the United States has in many ways again tied our fate uh to this party. What what are what are the effects right now that you're seeing from your from your book? Certainly people are becoming aware of the subject. Are people in Washington starting to have more discussions about this, saying, look, we have to do something about this particular issue, we have to do something about the China, uh, about the China issue generally. So what what where are things moving thanks to your awesome book?

SPEAKER_01 25:57

Um I don't know if it's entirely thanks to my awesome book. Thank you. And I appreciate you for the for the for the adjective. Um it I think part of it is, and this is part of the reason I wrote the book in the first place. There's been a change in capacity for people to get it. I think maybe it was COVID. I think maybe it was, you know, partially maybe seeing our own totalitarian impulse during COVID manifest.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Um, and also like seeing people welded into their homes under the CCP zero COVID policy, their attempt to to control, you know, uh a coronavirus uh uh through through these types of extreme measures. I think we got maybe a little more insight into the totalitarian nation uh nature of the CCP's mind, right? Like how they how they think about things. But something's changed. Today, when I talk about it with people, they don't clue out. They're like, oh my God, that's horrible. How can I help? Like that's a very common response. And there's a lot of people. So I and that I that I already sensed, which is part of the reason I I wrote the book now, right? Because I felt like, you know, people have done great work on this issue. There's voluminous evidence. This is why people say, so yeah, what's the evidence? You know, David Matis would say the problem with this issue is not too little evidence, it's too much evidence and of a variety of sorts, and you have to kind of, you know, kind of lay it all out, right? As as I've been doing a little bit here. But I would say I there are people in many, many departments in the government who are personally interested in this issue uh and and want to uh basically make some action on it. And it's a just a question of how to do that. I I I believe that's the case. We have two pieces of federal legislation that have passed the House near unanimously, not common, right? Um, and and they're in the Senate now, and there's questions about like what's gonna happen with them. One there's one bipartisan Senate bill now, just recently reintroduced, the Falun Gong and Victims of Forced Organ Harvesting Protection Act, S4009. Um, there's another, there's a bill that is in the House, also bipartisan, stop Forced Organ Harvesting Act, HR 1503. Anyway, both very good pieces of legislation that deserve to be passed, will make a significant difference, right? It'll sanction people. Chinese uh uh elites, they like to have exit strategies for when the party collapses, which of course it will, you know, inevitably, as they always do. The question is sort of why when, and with their economy, you know, kind of grinding, grinding to a halt in the last couple of years or slowing down a lot. Sorry, no, maybe people have will accuse me of hyperbole here. Okay, slowing down significantly. Um uh uh recently, a lot of people are asking that. So if you've been involved, yeah, I think a lot of people will not want to be involved with that if in case they want to make that exit strategy to the US, for example. So there's there's a there's a bunch of ways in which this is this actually has teeth. We could also establish in law that it's real, because there's still people out there who say, uh-uh, no, no, this is just propaganda and so forth. This is, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

That in itself is really impressive, actually. Just like, no, this is what American legislators believe, the world's oldest democracy.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

So that I think the huge like I'm particularly interested. I'm gonna be at a hearing on the 14th of May, uh, the uh Congressional Executive Commission on China. Uh, there's gonna be three of us testifying about this. Um, perhaps that can create the final push to get some of this legislation over the finish line. Um that's at the federal level. But there's six states that have passed laws that are very good. They're just they simply do what this is right. They see in Israel, because of Jakob Levy's focus on this issue. Back in 2008, they passed a law that said our you know, socialized healthcare is not gonna pay for China transplants. The equivalent laws in six states now here say Medicare, Medicaid insurance can't pay for China transplants. That's good. We should get 44 more states, right, uh, to do that. The Wisconsin uh governor just vetoed that bill. It would have been seven. Uh perhaps there's some provision he doesn't like, but they they've actually managed to get ones that have been vetoed past later with some some changes and so forth. So this is a this is a great start. And and Lee, at a grassroots level, this is the part I'm kind of in a way most excited about because I really believe in grassroots organizing. Um, you know, Rotary Club is a group I've worked with in the past when I was running uh youth programs, right? So lo and behold, they invited me to a panel last year. They have a club dedicated exclusively to dealing with this, to ending forced organ harvesting in China. And as a result, I've become a Rotarian recently. They want to use my book as a one of their educational materials alongside film screenings and all this. So people in and it's not a high bar to join uh Rotary here. You just have to be interested in being of service. So this is for people that aren't, you know, sort of super activists in their own right, but want to get involved, want to make a meaningful difference. This group is doing amazing work.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

Jan, uh, your book, I mean, the the I mean, yes, your book is fantastic, but also you're telling us the different things, the different effects it's already having, the grassroots level at the uh uh level of state legislatures as well as the federal government. This is this is such good news. Seldom has an important book had such a positive effect across the country and across so many, uh across so many channels. Jan, where do people order it?

SPEAKER_01 31:42

So killedtoorder.com, that's short links to the Amazon page. That's the quickest, easiest way. But really, any bookstore, if the many bookstores have it. If they don't, ask them for it, get it in there. Libraries, I saw actually have seen like a bunch of libraries. I've bought numerous copies. Some of them are you know on multiple holds. I'm kind of excited about this. So it's it's you know starting to percolate. But uh, I would love it if you read this book. Please, uh, please do if you're watching, killtoorder.com.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

And I endorse it 100%. Jan, thanks so much for being with us here today on Roots, Rights, and Reason.